Dangerous Ideas for Social Change
What kind of world do we want to live in?
This podcast opens the difficult and uncomfortable conversations of crime, addiction, poverty and more.
If we want a healthier community these messy conversations need to happen.
Dangerous Ideas for Social Change
Tragedy to Advocacy: Karen Wiebe's Fight for Justice
In this episode of Dangerous Ideas for Social Change, Kent Dueck sits down with Karen Wiebe, founder of TJ’s Gift Foundation. Karen shares the story behind the tragic loss of her son and how that experience has led her to become an advocate for families that have been impacted by violent crime. Together, Kent and Karen discuss the justice system, community response to violence, and the power of turning personal tragedy into long-term impact.
What kind of a world do we want to live in? This podcast opens the difficult and uncomfortable conversations about crime, addiction, poverty and more. If we want a healthier community, these messy conversations need to happen. This is Dangerous Ideas for Social Change. Alright, I want to say welcome to Dangerous Ideas for Social Change. You know, we've been on this theme of community violence and we've had a number of different perspectives, and today we wanted to zoom in and dial it in and make it a little more personal, and so we're very excited to have Karen Weave with us, and Karen's going to share with us a little bit of her journey. And so let's just jump right in. Karen Sure, tell me about how you got to the place you are today You're known as somebody, as an advocate for victims and tell me a little bit about how did you end up in that place.
Karen :Well, 22 years ago, our son, tj, was murdered, and he was murdered by people in the drug world. So we, we knew that TJ was experimenting for a couple of years, I guess before he, before he died. But then we discovered, about a month before he died, that he was also dealing and that he was heavily involved in drugs. And we had said to him, like we're, we don't do that. You know, we're not, I'm not interested in having you put everybody in our family at risk by doing this out of our home, and that it has to stop. If you want to be, if you want to live here and be part of this family, it has to stop and, um, or you have to find another place to live, because I'm not putting. He had twin siblings that were two years younger, who would be at risk from people that are heavily involved in drugs, and I couldn't, couldn't do that.
Kent:So, um, can I just ask what? What was that like to to kind of make that decision, to set the boundary? It was horrible. It was horrible. Tell me about it.
Karen :It was, you know, dealing with his drug issues before this. He you know kids that are involved in drugs are the best liars, and TJ wasn't any exception. He had excuses for everything. If I would find anything like a baggie or anything like that, it was, oh, I don't do that anymore, or oh, that was for somebody, or whatever. And he lied about it over and over again.
Karen :And, being his mom, I wanted to believe him, you know, I wanted to believe that he wouldn't do that. We had raised our kids so we thought they would not be interested in that. Our kids were raised as christians. They were involved in in sports and music and activities. We had a very full lake life, went to the cottage on the weekends, and so we had. The intent was that the kids would never want to do something like that because they knew so much about how much life could be so much better. And so when we started to see signs of it and TJ would make excuses about it, we believed him or I believed him. I don't think his dad ever did it. We believed him or I believed him. I don't think his dad ever did. And every once in a while his dad would say something like well, I think you know TJ is involved, tj's using drugs or whatever and I'd say, well, no, I asked him about it and he said no, you know.
Karen :And, of course, about a month before he died, we found out that, yes, indeed, he was not only using but selling and, and it was horrible, it was absolutely horrible. My husband wanted to kick him out of the house and I knew if we kicked him out of the house, we lost any influence we had over him and he didn't want to leave. You know, he wanted to live at home and be part of the family, but he also wanted this other life. So it was. It was was very, very difficult. Um, he ended up getting charged by the police for, uh, something that he didn't do, and the charges were eventually dropped. But, um, through all of that, you know, he was angry, he was upset. Uh, he was very, very close to us, he did not want to disappoint us. Um, and uh, he thought that he could fly under the radar and do this and we would never know, and and whatever, and you know so you've made that difficult decision, you.
Kent:I can't imagine a parent having to to make that call. Uh, here it was conflicted between your husband and you, but at some point then TJ's out of the house. And what's your connections like with him once he's kind of out of the house?
Karen :He never left the house. My husband wanted to kick him out and I said, no, we're not doing that. And my husband and I, we thought very much alike and he's passed away now but we thought very much alike and he gave in to what I wanted, which was we weren't going to lose influence over this kid, so we kept him at home.
Kent:So take us kind of. You know the tension in the home. But then take us to that moment when you you get that, that phone call. Was it a phone call? Did the police officer come by, take us like what that was like for you and your husband so about a month before tj died, we found out um that he was dealing and using.
Karen :We confronted him and we gave him two weeks to clean up his act. Um, he, we, I knew that you, you know, would be stupid to make him flush his drugs down the toilet, sort of thing. Uh, he would then be putting everybody at risk so um we said you've got two weeks, get rid of whatever. You've got two weeks. Get rid of whatever you've got, pay off whatever debts you owe and at the end of two weeks you have to agree to see a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
Karen :You have to see a medical doctor to see what damage you've done to yourself and the whole family is going to go for counseling. Because, I mean, clearly there's something going on here, there's something wrong that has're, you know, that has allowed you to sort of go down this route and uh. So we went, uh, to the lake and, uh, my husband had just bought a new snowmobile. Tj was really into snowmobiling. He was very disappointed. Tj chose to stay in town and, um, but we, we, we, each of us actually got a phone call the day that tj was murdered, um, and he, uh, he phoned my husband.
Karen :I was still sleeping. He phoned my husband and said that he was really sorry for all the problems that he'd caused, that he, his friend that he had been dealing with, had stabbed him in the back and that he didn't think he could ever trust her again dealing with had stabbed him in the back and that he didn't think he could ever trust her again, and so on and so forth. And then, when I woke up and my husband told me about this phone call, then I phoned TJ myself and I also had a wonderful conversation with him. Both of those I consider real gifts. And, um, you know, he, he said to me that he was really sorry, that he wasn't going to do this life anymore, um, that he you know again that he'd been stabbed in the back by his friend and he couldn't trust her and he was not going to be involved with this anymore. And I said, you know, tj doesn't matter, today's a new day, today we start over.
Karen :And so we were coming into the city and thinking that we would. We came in early, we thought we'd all have supper together and and so on, and then he didn't come home for supper. So he didn't come home that night. And that's not like tj, he was always around, um, and so, uh, the next day his brother, who was 18, phoned the hospitals, phoned around to see if TJ had been brought in anywhere.
Karen :And then by Thursday we were very worried and my husband went down to the police station and found out how to get into the vice department of the day which is like almost impossible because they're all closeted in there and told them that TJ was missing. And they already knew TJ was missing, but they said that the word on the street was that he had gone to do a buy somewhere and that he was okay, there's nothing. Nothing bad had happened to him, so we stayed in touch with the police through the next three weeks. They were very, very good. The vice department was very good. They came over and checked on Stacey and Chad and on us to see how we were doing.
Kent:What was that three weeks like? How were you doing?
Karen :It was a nightmare because we were trying to find him. We were driving out making meetings with friends, of friends of friends, meeting people we had never known before that knew TJ. Everybody was extremely careful when they talked to us but they didn't give us any indication that anything bad had happened to him. I think we kind of. I think floyd knew first of all, and I think I suspected, because we would go out in the car and we would, you know, look, I'd get out of the car if I saw green garbage bags and kick them to see if there was a body in there. I mean, it was unbelievably horrible, and um. And then on the um, I guess after three weeks, they finally decided they would go with missing persons. So they put an announcement out uh, missing persons, on Friday, and up until that time I had been working and Floyd had been working and, and we told our bosses what was going on, but we were still working. And then, when it went public, I took that next week off because it was just too hard.
Kent:As in when you got the news.
Karen :No, it only went to missing persons. But when it went to missing persons on that Friday night, that's when the case actually broke with the police. And actually it's a fascinating case. If you've never read about it, we have it up on our website, tjsgiftcom.
Karen :And the police had answered a call from a young woman who lived on Furby Street that there was somebody in her apartment. She needed him to get out because he's making too much noise and she was afraid she would get evicted if he didn't leave. And he wouldn't leave. So the two street cops went down and picked him up and he lied about his name and then, when they found out his real name, they realized he had outstanding warrants in Regina. So they took him back to the police station and then he said to them if you let me go from that ward, I'll give you the biggest case of your lives, because I know somebody that was murdered and he's being reported missing. But I know he's murdered and I know who did it.
Karen :So they immediately called in homicide and over the weekend the homicide cops called in various people that he was giving names and so on and so forth to and found out what had happened. They didn't tell us because of course the cops don't tell you what the case is. But nonetheless they were working on it and over the weekend it went to homicide. So we didn't really know what that meant. So I'm just trying to timeline At this point.
Kent:Do you know that TJ has deceased? No, you don't know this yet.
Karen :No, Having gone to homicide, I guess the reasonable expectation is that, yeah, he's died, but what did we know? We've never dealt with the cops Like we didn't know anything about it.
Kent:And you wanted to remain hopeful, I imagine.
Karen :Absolutely. And cops told us to. They said they'd had cases before where somebody being reported as having died and they showed up. So you know, don't give up hope. We're looking. And our assumption was that they were still looking for him, which they were.
Karen :But um over the next, that next two, they were pursuing two people that had taken TJ out in a car and it turned out that they'd gone to Calgary. So the cops got a phone number from one of the witnesses for one of the killers and they phoned it and it was one of those pay-as-you-go phones and it didn't have any more money on it so it wasn't going through. So they put money on it, so it wasn't going through. So they put money on it and it went through and one of the killers, chad Hanser, picked it up in Calgary and that's how they knew where they were. So they flew seven police officers from Winnipeg to Calgary and Calgary police did the arrest and then they interviewed them there and they got their confessions there and then they flew them back to winnipeg. We still had not been told that tj was dead. Um, we knew that they had gone to calgary to arrest two people but we didn't know specifically what had happened and the cops did not want to tell us until they had tj's body back.
Kent:So they brought them concerned it was going to interfere with the investigation, or what was their thinking?
Karen :uh, I think they felt never, say never, like there's still a chance that this is not, uh, you know, going to carry through and that maybe it isn't true, right, um and uh. So they brought the killers back and there was a raging blizzard going on and they had one of them in two, like they were in two separate cars and they said take us where you left the body, and they went out to their general area but they couldn't find it because of the blizzard and I think also, I'm not even sure they really remembered where they were, I'm not sure that they actually picked a spot sort of happenstance is what I think.
Kent:A little more chaotic, a little less planned yeah.
Karen :And oh no, I think the murder itself was planned, but where they were going to do it was not necessarily planned. The police sergeant came and came to see us and he had said that he was coming, I think, around 3.30. So I'd left work early, floyd left work early, we had the kids at home, we were waiting and by this time I had a very strong feeling that TJ was gone and I needed to do something to keep Stacy and Chad busy. So I had Stacy start pulling pictures to make posters for a funeral, pictures of TJ. And then he came.
Karen :The police sergeant came and told us, basically you know what had happened to a certain degree. They don't tell you everything, right, you don't find out everything till you go to court. But he told us that that TJ was dead and that they had arrested people for his murder. They didn't say how many people, because they made these two arrests and then later on they made another arrest and later on they made another arrest. So we didn't know. We were surprised when they made these other arrests. We didn't know these people. We knew the name of one, I think I talked on the phone to the guy that was the ringleader wanted tj to die. It's the only one that tj knew and um, and then the next day they went out and they did the police line and they walked through the snow till they kicked him and found him and you've got this dragged out journey and now, finally, you, you have the news and it's confirmed.
Kent:Yeah, help, uh, help people understand, because I think often you know people hear about violence and they read it in the news maybe, and they don't get the the finer details of what families go through when they face this news. What, what kind of transpired in your home. What was that news like?
Karen :um, it was. It was really horrifying, um, our kids each had their own support networks of their friends, um, and and we had tremendous support like we um had. Uh, our friends just came out and church people and our families and so on and so forth and we had tremendous support. But I mean, you're trying to digest. You know what does that mean? Why did why did this happen? And the police said it was jealousy and greed you know, jealousy.
Karen :Actually, tj was killed because of a girl and um, and then the killers were going to get whatever money he had on him and he was known to carry a fair amount of money, um, the two that took him in the car and then the two others that were charged were not in the car with them but they, uh, were to get whatever drugs tj had. So it was um, it was so much to take in that first of all, your kid is dead, um, and then, second of all, how they died, because now it's very complicated, right like it's now, it's going to be the rest of our lives. It's the rest of your lives when you're a parent, anyways, when your kid dies.
Kent:So I I don't say that this is, say more about that the rest of your lives. What do you? What do you?
Karen :well, yeah, I mean you when you have a child in your family. They're precious.
Kent:Yeah.
Karen :And when they're gone there's a hole, and then that hole is never filled.
Kent:It's a lifelong. It's a lifelong journey.
Karen :But when they're murdered, then you end up with a relationship with the person that killed them, right, because you end up seeing the court process through. And then there is the parole process, and so I'm still going to parole hearings, my myself and my kids. We go to parole hearings every time there's one that's called and, uh, I give a statement, my daughter gives a statement, um, and that's like reliving the whole thing.
Kent:It's what's that like, what's that experience it's not really reliving the whole thing.
Karen :Unless I choose to tell my story that way, the statement that you give at a parole hearing is what impact has this murder had on you? And you're giving it to the parole board, not to the offender. Supposedly right, but I mean, there's ways of writing things. You say what you need to say and you know that the offender is going to is. He's there, he's going to hear it and plus, he gets a copy of it before the hearing so he can see what.
Karen :It is right, um, but it is. It depends on the route that you want to take. I've I've done um various things. One of one of the things that I wanted to know was stuff I didn't find out from the, from the trial, because the police don't fully investigate a crime like that. They investigate enough so they can get a conviction. You know they get all the important points.
Karen :But there's all the questions you have like, for example, why did they choose where they chose to leave tj's body? That was a burning question for my husband and he was prepared to meet with them to ask them that question. I said to him, like they're never, they don't even know. I'm sure they don't know. And if they did, how do you know what they're telling you is going to be the truth, right and uh. And then he died before he could meet with him. He had a heart attack and he died.
Karen :But, um, you know, you, you have questions about, about timing, about things that are really important to a parent that the cops don't care about because it doesn't impact their case and um, so using those statements at parole hearings, you can find that information out. One of the things that they did was they lied on the stand about one of the offenders and that offender was acquitted and I knew like he had been implicated. He's the only one that knew TJ and I knew that he had been involved. I wanted them to admit that they'd lied, and so when I did my statement for a parole hearing, I said like why should you be released when you lied about somebody that was involved in this case and that person is walking free? Why, who can trust you? And the next time there was a parole hearing, they admitted. The two that were still in jail admitted that they had lied.
Kent:Were there any implications for the individual that was implicated there?
Karen :No, because he'd already been tried and acquitted, so there was nothing anybody would do about it, but for you was it a sort of a relief, or uh well, I wanted to hear them say it, but I knew it.
Karen :I knew he'd been involved. I mean, everything led to him. It was just stupid that he'd ever been acquitted, um, but nonetheless, I knew I wanted that. I wanted proof to a lot of people that, yes, this other person had been involved and other people were making would make excuses and say, well, maybe he hadn't. Well, no, he had. You know, and just because they lied on the stand doesn't mean that he wasn't involved. They lied, for whatever reasons that they got out of it.
Kent:So it was important to me that they had to admit that so then, tell us a little bit about the sentencing what actually happened, how, how long the perpetrators went away so there were four people that were charged.
Karen :The first person that was charged, uh, sat behind tj in the car and did pretty much everything to him. They did a number of things to him to kill him, and when they left he wasn't dead. It was January 5th, so he died. He had the first trial. His name was Anthony Pulsifer. He was found guilty by a jury of second-degree murder and conspiracy to commit first-degree murder, which doesn't seem to me to work. It should have been first-degree or not, but our court system is such that they are allowed to find whatever they chose. And he received a sentence of 15 years to life, which means that he had to be in jail for 15 years, and after 15 years he would be on parole for the rest of his life. Interestingly enough, he is still 22 years later in jail, and so this is.
Kent:There were other offenses that took place when he was in jail? No, or that just.
Karen :No, this is about TJ. He has not earned the ability to be out and the parole board has seen that and I'm doing everything I can to provide the impact that he's had on us to keep him there, to provide the impact that he's had on us to keep him there. I'm not going to say that I have any power over that, but I write powerful statements and I want them to understand the impact that he's had. Obviously, he's not doing what he needs to do or he'd be out anyways. And you know, I'm a christian person and I believe in the power of prayer and I believe that he's. He's there because we're working to keep him there. Um, there's a small part of me that wonders. You know, he received second degree murder for all the things that he deliberately did, and it was, it was a planned murder. So, um, I I wonder sometimes if the parole board doesn't see that he should have had first degree and it's keeping him for the 25 years they're kind of seeing it as premeditated well, it's definitely premeditated.
Karen :premeditated is there's no question about it. And um, and what I really appreciate about the parole board is that when I write a statement they hold him to account for what I've said in my statement. Um, I've had witnesses contact me, afraid that if he gets out and some of the other people have gotten out, um, that they're going to be at risk and and I've said that to the parole board, like, I've been contacted by people that are worried, you know, and then they will tell him, you know, they will question him about that. The parole board is in Western Canada anyways, I have not seen them in our situation. I have never seen them be what people think the parole board is kind of a revolving door. I've never seen them in our situation. I've never seen them be what people think the parole board is kind of a revolving door. I've never seen that.
Kent:You're satisfied with the justice system, absolutely how it worked for you.
Karen :No, I'm satisfied with the parole board Okay.
Kent:Yeah, I guess the justice system missed that charge.
Karen :The justice system is everything from the cops till they're not in parole anymore, and that's never going to happen for him for the rest of his life. I've spent the other part of my life the bulk of my life since TJ's died trying to get justice for people through the courts, through the laws being changed and stuff like that.
Kent:Let me just say that's an unbelievable story and, um, so many people who would have gone through something like you and your husband went through and your family went through would just want to survive and get by. But you've done more, you're, you're. I want to hear a little bit about how, how, uh, that tragic loss of tj, how you sort of redeemed parts of that by reaching, by helping. Like what are, what are you doing to help victims? Help me understand.
Karen :Well, we knew we, we needed a response. My husband and I are all. We have always been community-minded. We did our young people's groups at church. I've been a church choir leader. We, uh floyd did cubs and scouts. Um, you know, we've we've always been involved in the community in some way or other.
Karen :He was baseball convener for bonnie vettel and and stuff like that and, and so it was inconceivable to us that something of this magnitude could happen and we could go on, just go on with our everyday lives. Well, first of all, that doesn't happen. Your life is never the same. We did 180 degree turn in our lives and my husband was a successful businessman, I was a teacher and you know that's all I ever wanted to do was be a teacher. But it became clear that, you know, we needed to do something. We needed to have a response to what happened to TJ, and so, in having the response, what we felt we really needed to do was support other families as they were going through this, and that summer the year that TJ died, I think, there was one every week or every second week of kids that were dying, that somehow were drug related or some kind of violence.
Karen :So we created a fund with the Louis Riel school division where the money from the funeral would go into this fund so that kids could help kids not do drugs. Because I mean, obviously kids aren't listening to parents, right and um. So we thought, okay, the way to reach kids is through their friends. Empower their friends and the friends will be safe, and then they will empower their friends. So that's how we decided we would do it, and so we raised, not raised. We were given money at TJ's funeral. What do you do with this money? You know, give it to the Humane Society is a good idea, but we needed it to be more focused to our situation. So we created this fund in Louisville and gave the money to them and it had to be used. It was supposed to be used for programs where kids helped kids not do drugs. And then we went through court and that took about four years because there are four offenders. And I mean it's just on and on and on and on.
Kent:So you're at the funeral of your son. You're already having the wellbeing of others in mind.
Karen :Oh, before the funeral, I son, you're already having the well-being of others in mind oh, before the funeral I'm I find that, I find that staggering because, because the the pain, the agony that we were going through is not something you wish on anything anybody. I don't wish it on tj's killer's parents. What we live with I it's horrendous, it's, it's unbelievable pain to lose a child that way. Um, the loss of a child is always terrible. The loss of a loved one is terrible. The loss of a child is is the worst pain that a parent will go through, and the only thing that's worse than that is losing another one. You know, and so, like we knew, we'd read the pick up the paper and read that you know this, and the next thing had happened, and the next thing had happened, and the next thing had happened.
Kent:And it was like we have to reach out to those people because you would pick up the phone and or how would you get in touch with, with folks?
Karen :uh, well it was a lot easier when we had a phone book cell phones have really made it very difficult, yeah um, but we could, you know, in some situations.
Karen :I remember one case, and this mom now is very involved with compassionate friends but this kid went to the same school as tj, had the same name, was the same age and died a year later. I think it was a year later or maybe six months later, I can't remember, but anyways around the time, and they might have known each other when they went to school, because it's the same school, um, and you know you're, you're instantly connected to that person, um.
Karen :And we found that with other people, like, nobody will understand what we're living with unless they live with it. And all the support organizations, they all do their bit. The families, the friends. They're all trying so hard to make it better and to fix it. And it's unfixable and they can't make it better. You just have to survive it and people don't understand that, but when you're living with it, you understand it. So it for people like us to reach out to other people that are going through this.
Kent:We may be their life ring I'm curious, um, when you went through it in those early weeks, did anyone reach out to you with that kind of help, or were you alone?
Karen :uh, there was nobody that we knew that had a homicide. Nobody reached out to you with that kind of help. Or were you alone? Uh, there was nobody that we knew that had a homicide. Nobody reached out to us that had a homicide. Initially, um, everybody reached out like so much, so many people were so good to us, our, even our employers. I worked for permanent trails. They paid for me to attend court. Uh, never took it off my sick time and they put a letter in my file saying anytime I needed to go to court I was released. My husband had the same situation with his work. So I mean we were very blessed that way.
Kent:But actual people with lived experience. You kind of had to go it alone.
Karen :Until we went to court. When we went to court, we met a wonderful woman whose name is Darlene Rempel at the time there's now Darlene Rempel Fillion and she had begun MOVA in 2000. Tj was died in 2003. She had started MOVA in 2000. At that time it was for victims of violent crime so it could have been sexual abuse or a lot of things.
Karen :but she came, came to court with us and she explained what a voyeur was.
Karen :She explained who the court, the people that come to court just to watch what's going on, interested people that are, you know, wanting to see what's. She told us about those people, because we were wondering who's in this room, like who else knows TJ, but they weren't there. Because you know tj, they were interested in the case, right, um, she was there with us so much she was amazing and she started mova and so you know, eventually both of floyd's sisters actually became involved with mova, um, and then eventually I became involved, involved and Floyd was always involved with it. Floyd was the person that was, you know, he was vice president of Compassionate Friends Canada and he was involved with MOVA and he was he was the first chairperson for the Victims Advisory Council for to the Parole Board and Correctional Service of Canada for the Prairie Region, and so we were always, he was always right out in front advocating for victims and I was teaching. So I mean, I only had so much time and running TJ's Gift.
Karen :So, I didn't do as much of that as he did.
Kent:But then, after I retired from teaching, then I had more time to do it uh, this story has been one of just like, incredible loss, incredible pain, but the the fact that you were able to transform this into something that that has an impact in the community is just. It speaks to the depth of your character and who you are, who you and Floyd were, and uh, so, so what, exactly? What are the? What are the kinds of services or outreach that you offer families that are going through? What does that look like?
Karen :Well, first of all we have to find them. That's become more difficult because we don't have a phone book. So you know, you see the name in the paper. It might not be the name of the same name as parents, right? So that's the first obstacle we have to overcome. Um and um, if we can track those people down, sometimes it's a matter of saying to the police please give these people our, my, our phone number.
Kent:Um, and they've done that they're generally cooperative on that well because particularly more with my husband.
Karen :I think he had a very good relationship with the cops and homicide in particular departments so he would give information, his phone number or whatever to them In a particular case he'd talk about it with them, give them his phone number, ask him to have the people call him if they wanted to. They always did yeah. And then it would form a relationship, and then we form a family, more of a family relationship. Um, now it's it's very difficult to do that. Uh, we, we have to rely more on people reaching out to mova or to tj's gift, um Gift, and so we have our information out there.
Karen :The police, victim Services of the Province, the hospitals, funeral homes, they all have brochures and letters from us that we hope they'll give. Victims of homicide, families so they will contact us. Families that they so they will contact us and uh, it, it, we don't get contacted by families for homicide in by any means. All of them like we. We only get people that are you know. They get to a point where they're desperate and they need help, right, and uh, they're looking and they're looking for help because they get a big stack of brochures and that from the cops, from victim services and so on. They don't necessarily have the mind to go through them, but they get to a point where they need to know that there are people around that are like them.
Kent:Right. So a number of times you've alluded to TJ's Gift and I'd like to hear a little bit more about what that is, what that provides and how it's making a difference in our community.
Karen :Well, tj's Gift started off from the fund that we gave Louis Riel actually Took us four years to get through court and that was very intense, so we ended up having to wait until that was done. And then we created a um, a board of sorts, sort of steering committee of our friends and family. Um, when tj died, we knew we were going to have a huge funeral and we were preparing for a thousand people. Quite simply, we went to get food for a thousand people and realized it was ten dollars a person.
Karen :It would have been ten thousand dollars for just food for his funeral and when you have a murder in your family you're not prepared for that, you know we didn't have money set aside for our kids funerals, so our friends all got together and made sandwiches and desserts and served them at the funeral that and then we went over and visited with them after the funeral.
Karen :You know how people will get together after a big event yeah and uh, they said we're really, you know, sorry that we couldn't do some kind of a function that would raise some money, uh, to put into louis riel. So we decided that we would have a big dinner and dance and 650 people came Amazing Government, teachers, families, all kinds of people. We raised $54,000 in one night and we gave it all to Louis Riel. And then we thought, gee, so Louis Riel's looked after, what about all the other kids in the province? So, with a steering committee, we started planning and then we went from that to a board, an advisory board, and we became incorporated and went the route of, you know, becoming more formal and uh, and then started, um, having fundraising galas every year, raising the money, and then we put it into, uh, tj's gift foundation we created. And then what we do with that is, um, I will go out to schools and talk to kids about what happened to tj and talk about choices. We had a video, professionally made, called choices and we encourage kids to do projects. We encourage schools. The problem, of course, is that it's not just the kids, right, the. They have to have a teacher that's going to be supporting them through it and if we, if they can find a teacher that will help them do a project where they help other kids not do drugs, um, then we pay for all their expenses for it. Amazing. And then, on top of that, of course I don't know if you know anything about music teachers, of which I am um, but we get bored with things and we need to do something different. But you never stop doing what you initially did right, so it just adds in, adds in.
Karen :So then I decided, okay, well, kids listen to music. How can we reach them with tj story through music? So we decided to hold a concert at the mts center. We rented the mts center. I contacted kevin donnelly he was wonderful, how do you do this? I have no clue right. And he said, well, this is what you do. And so he said, okay, well, give us a date and we're going to rent you guys and invite every kid, every school, from grade 7 on to grade 12, for a free concert. We are going to get local musicians and we're going to put on a concert to help kids be safe.
Karen :We actually were involved initially with Bubba B. Bubba B, the MC, and he had contacted the mayor, who at that time was Mayor Cates and was making arrangements for us to use a concert hall. That all fell through. So then we decided okay, well, we're going to go with the MTS Center and we'll pay for it. We had enough money in the bank that we could pay for it. So we ran to the MTS Center. We sent invitations to every high school within a reasonable distance of Winnipeg and in Winnipeg and every junior high. At that point it was just transitioning to middle schools. But anybody that had grade 7 and up come to this concert. It's free and it's just to help kids not do drugs. And the most I think we ever had was around 3 500 kids. Amazing um. And the first year we had sierra noble, we had baba b, we had a group, uh called um. Uh, what was their name? I can't remember. They're great kids. They were kids that we used a lot and they came from dakota collegiate.
Karen :They they've separated and changed their names many times since then, but um, maximum 60 wonderful and uh, and we put on this concert at the mts center and um, each of the groups, their responsibility was to perform, but they also had the responsibility to talk to their kids about not doing drugs, about their experiences with maybe having done drugs and made choices to not do that anymore, about their experiences with having friends or family that had been involved in drugs and what that had been like, experiences with having friends or family that had been involved in drugs and what that had been like. Um, but every band had to have, um, you know, a, a testimony for lack of a better word about why they didn't do drugs. Um and uh, it was huge, you know, it was amazing. And we also then, one year, we took maximum 60 out to schools. We did 20 schools in 20 days, I think it was, and they went into schools and did a concert. I talked about tj, they talked about why they didn't do drugs and it was just total outreach.
Karen :We give the kids a card. It's a business-shaped card. It's got got a picture of TJ on the front of it and it's a pledge card. And the pledge card is for them only. It's not for anybody else but them, and I tell them that, first of all, you don't have to take one of these Like this. There's no card police here to see who's taking cards and who isn't.
Karen :This is offered to you. If you want it, take it. If you don't want it, please don't take it and throw it in the garbage. I don't want to see TJ's face in the garbage and we offer it to kids and then I give them my phone number, and Flood used to do the same thing. This is our cell number. When you've signed your card card, take a picture of it and text it to us. We'll answer your text, but then you also have a conduit if you need to talk and, um, you know, I've, I've given my phone number out. I want to say to I don't know, maybe 20 000 kids and I've probably had six or seven prank calls out of that it's gonna happen, I guess it happens, but I mean like 20 000 kids yeah, amazing and it's my personal cell phone, so I mean they could.
Kent:Yeah, they don't well, karen, we're, uh, you have an amazing story and and the depth of respect I have for you, for how you've taken something dark and terrible and, uh, and I imagine you still walk with that darkness and it's still a challenge yes but, uh, the way you've given back.
Kent:I want to say, on behalf of our community and the wider winnipeg and all those families who have been through this, a big thank you for all of the heart that you've given themselves upon us. But it's encouraging to hear that there's things we can do to make a difference and, karen, for you and your husband and your family, you've done just that and I want to say thank you.
Karen :Oh well, you know it's good work. It needs to be done, and I'm glad that I'm able to do it.
Kent:Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to Dangerous Ideas for Social Change.